"Journalists should be upholding democratic values and human rights"

Welcome to Pen-in-Fist, and to the first-ever in the new series of activist-writer conversations, which will appear the third Tuesday of every month.

My first guest is freelance journalist Samir Jeraj. Samir and I talk about getting started in radical politics and journalism; combining freelance work with the newsroom; the impact of platforms like Substack; the media’s class, gender and race politics; the meaning of journalistic objectivity; holding politicians and policy-makers to account; and much more.

As ever, remember to share, comment, and like.

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Happy listening!

A note on audio quality and transcript: We did this interview in a lively pub, so there’s a bit of background noise. There’s an edited transcript below, which also contains a few corrections – including to my slip about the “criminalisation of the European Parliament”! That might be the topic of a future conversation. This time around we were talking about the criminalisation of sex work.

Conversation with Samir Jeraj

Carrie Hi everyone. Welcome to this very first episode of the new activist-writer conversation feature of Pen-in-Fist, a newsletter on writing and activism. I'm Carrie and I'm thrilled that my first guest is an old friend, and fellow activist and writer: Samir Jeraj. Hi Samir. 

Samir Hey, how you doing? 

Carrie Great. Thanks so much for joining me. Samir and I are chatting tonight at a pub in North London – a fantastic place for discussion about activism and writing, but it will also be filled with a few voices in the background. So bear with us. 

Samir is a freelance journalist who writes on health, politics, development, environmentalism, local government and housing. 

His book The Rent Trap, co-authored with Rosie Walker, is an in-depth look into the corrupt and destructive world of private renting. It's even more urgent today than it was when it was first published in 2016. His recent publications include articles on COVID-19 and racial equality, climate activism, the mayor of Zagreb, and debates about the criminalization of sex work in the European Parliament. That was an article that he and I co-wrote recently for the Green European Journal. 

Samir, this is a very impressive portfolio, and it's also one very much focused on social justice issues and looks a lot at local issues, local politics. So I wonder if you can go back and tell us a bit about how you got started in the kind of activist journalism you specialize in. 

Samir I think the first kind of foray into journalism I did was then I was a student. I was involved in activist groups at university especially around the environment, around social justice issues. And I remember we discovered that a lot of the merchandise produced by the student societies and the students union were sweatshop-made products. And so myself and a friend wrote an article for the student newspaper about it. We campaigned with the groups that we worked with on this. And then we did something similar a while later on the university pension fund being invested in the arms trade, and I think that was the first example of that happening. And in both cases it did lead to some amount of action. So the students’ union changed their supplier. The University entered into a discussion around divestment from these arms companies, although I think longer-term that didn't happen. We had the advantage at the time that the company that we were highlighting was being investigated for fraud, though that investigation was dropped by the then-Labour government, in what seemed a very dodgy decision even from an outside perspective like that. 

Carrie So is it fair to say, in your student days, that's where you started to see that it was possible that by writing about things, by investigating them, publishing them, circulating them, it was possible to affect some kind of social change in a radical way, even if it didn't always work? 

Samir Exactly. That's the place in which I kind of learned that. And before that, as a child and younger person, I wasn't from an activist family, but my parents were very, very into current affairs and the news. So my dad would watch several news programmes a day, like in the evening when he came back from work. We would have a Sunday paper, we would read, almost all together, we would basically devour this paper between us. So we were very engaged with current affairs and what was happening. 

Carrie And what do your parents and your family think about your job now?  Are they supportive? Are they fans? Do they read your work? 

Samir They're supportive. I think they read my work. My mum definitely does. She comments about it. There was a hilarious conversation a couple of weeks back where she was talking about my article with you on sex work, which is not something I've usually discussed with my mother [laughter]. Earlier in my career, when I was leading a less stable and conventional working life, I think what they wanted for me was a more stable and I would say more understandable, conventional career path. 

My parents were both migrants to the UK. There were no journalists anywhere in my extended family or in the family history as far as I'm aware, so this was a different thing.  

Carrie A bit risky. And that leads on well to the next question, which is that you combine your freelance work with a job at the New Statesman, which for listeners outside the UK is a left politics magazine. I'm wondering if you could say a bit about that combination, whether one of the appeals of freelance work for you is that it gives you a degree of freedom in what you can write about it and the angles you can give. 

Samir That's absolutely what it offered me when I took that job. So before then, I had been working for a racial equality charity as a policy person with a bit of comms stuff thrown in and freelancing as a journalist on the side. And then this was my first newsroom job. So that was something that was important to me in terms of learning and understanding the discipline of the newsroom and the rhythm of the newsroom, but still retaining a kind of level of freedom that allowed me to pursue my own interests, pursue stories that were just kind of outside my specific beat at the New Statesman. 

Carrie That's interesting because in a way you're going against the grain. There's a lot of talk these days about the disappearance of newsrooms, about the disintegration of so-called legacy media, the rise and rise and rise of platforms like Substack, for example, where I'm going to be posting this interview. And I wonder if you have any thoughts on the impact of those changes in the world of the media, on the kind of journalism you're doing, the more activist, politically engaged journalism. 

Samir I would say at the point I started working as a journalist, even in a freelance capacity, the avenue for radical journalism and campaigning journalism were narrowing down quite heavily, because they tended to be focused on some very specific publications and some very specific routes. For example, attempts to create new digital-first media that has had a radical focus, they have their own kinds of problems as well. I was a big fan of Gal-Dem, which closed down and was actually filling a role of media focused on the experience of women of colour, who'd been quite profoundly marginalised in legacy media and to a certain extent in more orthodox, radical nonconforming kind of media.

Carrie When Gal-Dem closed that was a real loss. It was a great platform. 

Samir Yeah, and the pathway in journalism is an interesting one. Very traditionally what used to happen was you would go and work at a local newspaper. You would develop your skills, cut your teeth, etc. You would do your National Council for the Training of Journalists exam. Then maybe get to work in a newsroom, at a national paper, or. So it was very structured, which was very positive in terms of class representation. 

There were a lot of working-class journalists that had very long and great careers as a result of this system. It utterly failed to promote gender equality, utterly failed to promote racial equality. So when it was somewhat smashed by the decline of journalist unions and the rise of university graduate journalists, it was a loss but also it did open up avenues for something different to happen. 

Carrie I think that sometimes when people talk about the very mixed impact of social media on media and equality, you on the one hand have the conspiracy theories, the trolls, the racism, the misogyny, the transphobia. And on the other hand, you do have, I'm thinking particularly of younger women of colour journalists who say that they have been able to find a niche for themselves in a way that perhaps they wouldn’t have been able to in that old boys’ club, old white boys’ club, of legacy media.

Samir Before the Internet, even if you were producing like a radical zine or something like that, you'd need to find your people. And that was really difficult. People had to more or less make themselves known in order to find the media that they wanted to connect with other people. Whereas one of the advantages of the internet and social media is that you can basically find your people or explore what actually you want. But then on the downside of things, it’s not per se a neutral platform in that way, it can enable any group of people with a shared perspective on the world to mobilise. That’s the debates around how social media is regulated and managed. 

Carrie And speaking of your people, your readership, how have you... Who are your people? Who are your readership? How have you found them? Do you have ways of engaging with them? Do you have a sense of who reads your work? 

Samir It's an interesting one because … One of the advantages of the newsletter model is you basically have ownership and control of your readership. I dabbled in a newsletter very briefly but I didn't have the discipline to do it. But I’ve used Twitter for a long time, for about a decade or so. And through that I cultivated a bit of an audience around housing because I write a lot about housing. A bit of an audience around green politics because that's an area which I've been active in for a long time. And those I would say tend to be the areas in which I have my particular niches. 

Carrie Well that in itself is interesting isn't it, because you're talking about having – you call them niches but we could call them expertise. You're an expert in housing, homelessness, housing policy, you've written lots on that. You wrote The Rent Trap, which is such a valuable book about, as I said, a problem that is getting worse in the UK rather than better. And you write on green issues and you are very attuned to the importance of local politics. And that’s also interesting, because there’s that form of politics and writing, and there’s also the growth and growth of the celebrity journalist, and the celebrity becomes a kind of journalist, a de facto journalist. And really what they're selling is themselves, their personality. 

Samir I do struggle with the celebrity journalism. I am sympathetic to the idea that actually most people could be journalists, and that actually a greater diversity of journalism is an amazing thing. But I have a problem with people with no training, or with self-publicists entering into the space. It's actually, there's a reputation risk for publications as well because some of the more high-profile journalist fraud cases that have been with people that were like celebrity journalists that actually have no real grounding and training in the profession. And the implication of professional values around attributing sources, ethical practices, and in an environment in which you're only as good as –  there's the pressure to be  the star columnist or the star reporter. 

Carrie Yeah, you get the most readers and the most clicks and I guess in that case it's something like Substack more subscribers, and it's all about metrics and as you say  high metrics doesn't necessarily equal high quality, reliable – And in fact I was going to ask you precisely about this, which is the emphasis in journalism on impartiality or, as you say, evidence, good research, and how you balance those requirements and pressures with your commitment to journalism that is aimed at making change, aimed at promoting greater social and economic equality. Have you ever been accused of being biased for example and what has been your response to that? 

Samir I've definitely been accused of being biased. But frankly I think in all of those cases it's literally been by random people who follow me on Twitter with an axe to grind. How I square it is that

I see objectivity as a process, not objectivity as an output. So I will research, I will interview people, will consult experts, will look at the data, will speak to lots of people and I will come to a view on it. I will try and boil it down. I won't then add to that view something completely contrary for the appearance of balance of outcome. That seems a deeply problematic process and one that actually is inimical to the practice of journalism. 

Journalism is about uncovering facts and actually just because someone – there's the classic line, just because someone says it’s so, don’t take their word at it. It's one of the more disappointing things when I hear an interview and someone's being interviewed says something and the interviewer doesn't challenge them. And I’m not saying that – it could be that I agree or disagree with the interviewee. But you need to take one more step further, challenge them a bit more, press them more and see if what they say holds up. Because it could be that they’re saying what is generally believed to be correct. But if they’re not a credible person then …

Carrie And if they don’t have any evidence. I’m also really struck by that. As you know, my background is in History. So in History we have these discussions, but they’re more framed as objectivity. There’s a huge debate in History about whether objectivity exists and so on. But I think sometimes people confuse objectivity with questions of how you approach evidence. I mean you can frame evidence and interpret evidence in different ways, that’s where I think historians and journalists have a lot in common. We look for evidence and then we have to interpret it. It's not ethical to ignore evidence that's there. It's not ethical to deliberately misinterpret and misrepresent evidence. And I agree with you that – let's look at our national broadcaster, the BBC. I frequently hear interviewers interviewing politicians, or it doesn't have to be politicians, and they make a statement and the simple question of where's your evidence to back that up isn't followed up, and therefore the statement stands without being challenged in any way. So I think that journalism as kind of pushing – It doesn't have to be aggressive or anything like that but … I think the discussions we have or the debates we have right now around so many issues in these so-called culture wars would benefit from more people being pressed to present what kind of evidence they're basing their arguments on, or if they're just spreading yet another misconception or belief as a fact. 

The headline on your website reads, Writing words that matter to make change. Tell us something more about how you see writing leading to change. 

Samir

I think good writing to make change uncovers previously unknown facts or about something that is happening in civil society. It could be a specific policy or lack of a policy and the effect it is having on a person, or a group of people and then it is understanding the impact of that on a societal level, mobilising the personal stories that can be found around it and challenging policy-makers and practitioners in whatever field as to what they are going to do or change about it. 

So, for example, years back now I worked on a story about the arrests of victims of crime who did not have secure immigration status. And this was quite a murky area in which some police forces were doing this, some weren't. It also just wasn't something that they'd ever really come to a specific view on. They seemed to have somewhat muddled through it. But it meant that when challenged on this, there was some movement in terms of recognising that this was poor policing practice. Like if you care about catching criminals and dealing with criminality, then a victim is a victim, or a witness is a witness. 

Carrie I see, so these are people who came forth to report a crime, either as victims or witnesses. Instead of being taken as victims or witnesses, they were arrested because they didn't have the proper immigration papers. 

Samir Yeah, and sadly it's still a practice. A colleague of mine did something recently, a few years back now, it's frustrating that it's a practice that's re-emerged. One of the things that happens is that this generates outrage. It is an outrageous thing. If you can pit a societal norm that criminals are bad and they're worse than immigrants – to go to the really lowest common denominator – then you could perhaps advance the idea that, “Oh yes maybe actually treating people like human beings is good for society.” Because these people deserve their human rights and they shouldn’t be subject to this treatment 

Carrie That example makes me wonder – this was a few years ago that you were writing about this, and at the moment, in the UK we're going from bad to worse in terms of government discourse basically associating migration or certain kinds of migration, undocumented migration, with criminality. And I wonder what you think the responsibility of the media is in terms of presenting. I'm not just talking about a balance of facts. If you look at the realm of discourse, the kind of language. Every day we see reports of what [UK Home Secretary] Suella Braverman is telling us about migrants. But we don't necessarily every day see the kinds of stories that you're working on.

Samir There is the challenge that a lot of journalism and reporting is based very much on what's news, it's what's happening now. And certain things are more newsworthy than others so, you know, the Home Secretary coming out with some outrageous comment about long-established international law rates being discussed, which then in part legitimises the questioning of it all. Whereas the unpicking of what the impact that has is less direct, is less immediate. You can't draw a clear line necessarily from that statement to a racist attack on someone. You can infer it, but that's a much harder thing to prove. And it's not as immediate in that same way. 

There's an interesting discussion around the importance of journalists across the political spectrum of defending human rights, because the right to be a journalist and to report and to publish is a right that came with democracy, the development of democracy. So therefore, if you are a journalist, you should be engaged in the process of the upholding of democratic values and human rights values that are the values that enable your job to exist and enable your profession to exist as well. So that is something that I think is an important reflection. It's not a God-given right that we're able to ask questions of people, write about it and publish it for everyone to see. That's a right that had to be won through political struggle over generations. 

Carrie That's an incredibly good point. It strikes me that in places where journalists are, unfortunately their lives are under threat. Like in a country like Mexico for example, that is a regular conversation that takes place very publicly, that is the need for civil society as well as the government to protect journalists. And to protect the need to tell the stories without putting their lives at risk, which many of them do, on a regular basis. Other places in the world as well. That’s one place where journalists are at risk. And I think one of the things that you're implying there is that often our discussions about freedom of speech are very impoverished. They're taken perhaps too literally. I'm just thinking about the discussion that's happening today around Lawrence Fox who is defending his misogynist comments about a female journalist. I’m not going to call Lawrence Fox a journalist. I don't think he deserves that name, but he's a classic example of a celebrity who gets lots of attention for mouthing off. And he's now been sacked by a right-wing broadcaster. But this typical kind of thing, I have the right to defend, to say anything, because that’s a matter of freedom of speech. And that’s the opposite pole of sophistication, let alone political understanding of what you are talking about as the responsibility of journalism. Not just to be able to say anything or press for the evidence. But also to recognise their role in sustaining a democratic society.

Samir The right to say whatever the hell you want, without evidence, in bad faith and all the kind of stuff is at the other end of the right to expose abuses of power, corruption, all this type of stuff, which is far murkier and whereby even within Europe journalists have been arrested, have been put in prison and have been killed in recent years because they have sought to report on stories. It is such an impoverished debate that we end up talking about someone's right to, in effect, draw tons of attention for saying something outrageous. It's just noise. It really is just noise. 

Carrie It is just noise. And unfortunately it's noise that makes it onto the 6 o'clock news so that I remembered enough to bring it up! One other thing I wanted to ask you about is that you're a writer, you're a journalist, writing is your mode of communication, it's one of your forms of activism. The kind of journalism you do is a form of non-fiction. Do you do any other writing? Have you tried your hand at fiction, at poetry, at playwriting? 

Samir Not really. I used to do that in school and such but I've been a non-fiction writer for quite a long time. But there's a healthy crossover with decades-long importing of methods of fiction writing into non-fiction which I was quite into. I wouldn't exclude myself from writing fiction and other forms. But I think in some ways I am more of a reporter than a writer. 

The craft of writing is a means to an end for me. It is the way in which I transmit information in an impactful way that resonates with the reader and hopefully prompts them to take some form of action. 

Carrie I've got a closing question. What about influences on you? Would you have people that you could recommend that we read?

Samir So, I read quite a lot about the practice of journalism, which actually I think is a really important thing to do. It stretches your mind a bit and makes sure that you're notjust kind of working within the kind of forms and norms that you have learned through osmosis. So one of the books that I really liked within the practice of journalism was The Elements of Journalism. I can't remember the authors off the top of my head but that was a really good book. And journalism in America has a far more developed conversation around the role of journalism and the practice of journalism. 

Carrie Why do you think that is? Why are Americans more attuned to this question of the role of journalism in public life? 

Samir I'm not sure, to be honest. I'm guessing it's to do with how it historically emerged. In the early years of newspaper journalism, American journalism was far more about building the nation, providing a newspaper that could be read and understood and bring together groups of people who were from all over the world. Whereas in the UK, the newspapers have emerged more from centres of power, whether those that are the centre, so the Times and the Telegraph being very old, very establishment political things, or the Financial Times as the representative voice of the client industry, or the Guardian as the non-conforming sections of society. But still it’s historically quite monied. Whereas in the US I think it was always meant to be a more democratic form, newspaper journalism. TV journalism is a different world. I enjoy, I reviewed Gary Young's book recently, which is a collection of his journalism. I've got a book of Gabriel Garcia Marquez's journalism, which is very, you can see the kind of, how the kind of forms have got in. He wrote an amazing book about the kidnapping, the spate of kidnappings in Colombia in the early 90s called News of a Kidnapping, an incredible non-fiction book. And the more problematic male journalists, your Hemingways and Graham Greenes and Hunter S. Thompson. And then on the TV journalism side I grew up with Jon Snow and Christian Guru-Murthy. 

Carrie Thank you, Samir. You can follow @sajeraj on the social media platform previously known as Twitter. He's also got a website.

Finally, thanks to everyone for listening to this first interview. I'll be back next month with another interviewee. As usual, please comment, like, share, and if you haven't subscribed already, please subscribe. We'll be back soon. 

Pen in Fist is written by me, Carrie Lou Hamilton. You can find my other writing and projects here. You can support my writing further by buying my book  or getting me a virtual coffee.